I’ve been sitting with what I’ve heard about the 5-MeO-DMT experience for a long time, but I’ve yet to go there.
Often called the God molecule, “5” isn’t about what’s seen or heard, but what is felt. The 5-MeO-DMT experience doesn’t add to our narrative through spectacle, but instead offers a new perspective on our stories by turning down the volume so low that our felt sense is all we have to remember. to remember how it felt. not the words. not the story.
This episode came out of what was supposed to be a casual conversation with Roger and Dustin of Sky Mountain Retreats. We found ourselves unpacking what 5-MeO-DMT actually is (Bufo, toad), how it differs from DMT, psilocybin, ketamine, and MDMA, and why so many people—especially women—describe it as a remembering rather than tripping.
This midday convo offered me so much clarity that I just had to share it with you.
Take care,
April
Episode Summary
What is 5-MeO-DMT, and why do people describe it so differently from other psychedelics?
In this episode, April Pride sits down with licensed clinicians and facilitators Roger and Dustin to explore the 5-MeO-DMT experience through both lived experience and emerging neuroscience. Often referred to as the God molecule psychedelic, 5-MeO-DMT is widely described as a non-visual psychedelic experience—one that quiets the nervous system rather than amplifying imagery, stories, or symbols.
Together, they break down 5-MeO-DMT vs DMT, explain how this compound interacts with serotonin receptors in the brain, and discuss why many people report profound ego dissolution, nervous system regulation, and long-term shifts in how they experience safety and connection.
This episode also centers women and psychedelics, examining why women—particularly those who have spent years in control, caretaking, or emotional labor—may feel especially drawn to this form of surrender-based medicine.
If you’re seeking grounded insight into psychedelic harm reduction, integration after 5-MeO-DMT, and what makes this medicine fundamentally different from other psychedelic experiences, this conversation is an essential listen.
🔵 Key Takeaways
The 5-MeO-DMT experience is often felt rather than seen, with little to no visuals or narrative content
Unlike classic psychedelics, 5-MeO-DMT is widely described as a non-visual psychedelic experience
Understanding 5-MeO-DMT vs DMT is critical—many vape pens labeled “DMT” contain N-N-DMT, not 5-MeO-DMT
5-MeO-DMT strongly activates both 5-HT2A and 5-HT1A serotonin receptors, impacting cognition and nervous system regulation
The medicine often quiets the nervous system rather than stimulating imagery or meaning-making
Synthetic 5-MeO-DMT allows for more precise dosing and supports harm reduction by protecting the Sonoran Desert toad
Women may experience particular resonance due to lifelong patterns of regulation, control, and emotional labor
Psychedelic integration after 5-MeO-DMT is essential; the effects unfold over time, not just during the session
Screening, contraindications, and aftercare are non-negotiable components of responsible psychedelic use
🔵 Timestamps
[00:00] What people mean when they describe the God molecule psychedelic
[02:10] How Roger and Dustin came to work with 5-MeO-DMT
[03:36] Why this is a non-visual psychedelic experience
[04:22] Synthetic vs toad-derived 5-MeO-DMT and harm reduction
[06:57] Why some therapeutic “stuckness” responds differently to 5-MeO-DMT
[08:28] Serotonin receptors and psychedelics: the double-door explanation
[10:00] Nervous system regulation and surrender, especially for women
[11:14] Gamma brainwaves, endogenous release, and embodied remembering
[13:41] April’s experience with DMT vapes and common confusion
[16:19] Clear distinctions between 5-MeO-DMT vs DMT
[18:30] Health risks, medications, and serotonin syndrome
[20:30] Ketamine, DMT, and the limits of comparison
[22:53] Why women and psychedelics intersect uniquely here
[23:21] Integration, meaning-making, and what comes after the experience
🔵 Guests
Roger & Dustin: Licensed clinicians and facilitators at Sky Mountain Retreats, specializing in carefully screened, harm-reduction-focused 5-MeO-DMT experiences with an emphasis on preparation, precision dosing, and long-term integration.
🔵 Additional Resources
Women in the Wild application - Looking for an IRL microdose/low-dose psilocybin experience in Seattle with other women? Applications are open for February and March gatherings.
Psychedelics & Seniors | Thursday, February 5, 2026
Learn how psychedelics may play a meaningful role in helping older adults navigate aging, existential distress, end-of-life anxiety, and unresolved trauma.
🔵 Transcript
[00:00:00] April Pride. host: Hey, this is April and this show SetSet discusses psychedelics. It’s intended for audiences 21 and over. Also, I am not a medical expert. If you are looking to engage with psychedelic substances, please consult your position before doing so.
[00:00:26] Roger: God is real. The universe is real. it’s all truly one.
You just heard from Roger at Sky Mountain in Arizona based retreat center specializing in five M-E-O-D-M-T. He’s describing the download consistently received by those who participate in ceremony with him and his partner, Dustin. This quote from Roger speaks to the moment in psychedelic conversations where language starts to fall apart, where people stop trying to explain what happened and start saying things like, I felt infinite.
Or something remembered itself through me on a recently recorded zoom with Roger and Dustin. They explained so much about five, as you’ll hear it referred to throughout this dialogue that I asked if I could turn our, what was supposed to be a casual get to know you conversation into a podcast episode for others who are also.
Curious about what is referred to as the God molecule, no longer living only in the underground or in spiritual storytelling. Five MEO is just beginning to enter early clinical research. The science is young, the data is limited, and the safety work is still ongoing. So today we’re holding both realities at once lived experience and emerging evidence.
In this episode, you’re going to hear these two licensed clinicians and facilitators describe experiences that are deeply personal, often ineffable, and hard to translate into everyday language.
[00:02:10] April Pride. host: how did you two land on five M-E-O-D-M-T medicine?
[00:02:16] Dustin: We’re both long time. Psychotherapist. I’m an LMFT, based, originally based in California, since 2007, and you go back to 1998 as a psychotherapist.
One of the things I was just sharing with somebody yesterday That happened really early and really powerfully was that I felt the palpability of being infinite, the experience of feeling infinite it was this experience of this truly never ends. and then to feel. That level of being and then to feel that future speak back to me in this timeframe, it just felt, so much open up. so I think for me, it awakened me to a certain kind of multidimensionality,
[00:02:59] April Pride. host: and what about you, Roger?
[00:03:01] Roger: I had no idea that I could have this kind of.
Expansion of awareness and this kind of sense of, oh, they’re really for me, everyone has their different understanding and language, but for me it’s oh, God is real. The universe is real. it’s all truly one. everybody belongs utterly and we’re all so much bigger than we think we are.
We all reduce ourselves and make ourselves feel small. obviously people in our lives have done that to us.
[00:03:36] April Pride, host: What you’ve just heard is something that comes up again and again with five M-E-O-D-M-T. No visuals, no stories, no entities. Instead, people describe a felt sense of infinity, a collapse of time, a knowing that feels embodied rather than imagined. When Dustin talks about feeling infinite, and Roger speaks about realizing that everything belongs and nothing is separate, they’re pointing to a core feature of this medicine.
Five MEO is often described as less about seeing something and more about becoming something or perhaps remembering what was always there this expanded state of being relies critically on the administration of experienced facilitators. Roger continues.
[00:04:22] Roger: I’ve learned one of the things we really like about the synthetic five MEO is that you can titrate very carefully in terms of the dosages. I learned at a certain point that I had to go down to a lower dose to work more cathart. and that has been incredible.
[00:04:42] April Pride. host: Roger mentioned use of synthetic five M-E-O-D-M-T because it’s easier to consistently dose and play with dosing while a person is in the experience. Another reason the synthetic form is desirable is because it’s natural origin is being threatened due to overuse by psychedelic enthusiasts.
Five MEO is often used by smoking the venom taken from the Colorado River Toad, also known as the Sonoran Desert Toad. Its Latin species name is Inus Varus, and was formally buffo varus. sometimes you’ll hear. Five M-E-O-D-M-T simply referred to as Bufo or Toad, or the toad,
whatever you choose to call it. I strongly recommend a synthetic form of this God molecule, so we can do no harm to the natural world. The fascinating part of an experience with five is that it’s felt not seen. It’s an important distinction
why does five M-E-O-D-M-T seem to reach people where ketamine psilocybin or MDMA sometimes don’t? The answer isn’t simple, but part of it may lie in how it interacts with serotonin receptors in the brain. Vive EEO appears to strongly activate both. Five HT one A and five HT two A receptors, which may help explain why it often bypasses narrative processing altogether.
I’ll explain more about the distinction of these two receptors a little bit later. Clinically, this is still being studied, but experientially people describe it as meeting them exactly where they need to be met, often in ways they didn’t intend or expect.
Thank you for sharing how you got here it sounds like there was. An awareness or an opening for both of you that you hadn’t experienced with other psychedelics
I have been curious and experimented and i’m waiting for that breakthrough another layer of this, that’s where I am.
[00:06:57] Dustin: That’s one of the reasons I made the pivot, what we found with five EO specifically, is that there are certain levels of consciousness that we could never reach.
With our clients, in the context of psychotherapy, in terms of stuckness , or whatever it is that’s going on in that person’s field. five ME seems to meet the person exactly where they need to be met in a way they can’t even often anticipate.
People will come in with intentions and 90% of the time what they’re wanting is addressed, but in a very different way Than they would’ve ever expected. that was a big catalyst for us in terms of our pivot to focusing on serving five.
[00:07:39] April Pride. host: The conversation moves into deeper territory. Dustin and Roger talk about gamma brainwave states endogenous release and why five M-E-O-D-M-T is sometimes associated with near death or birth like experiences. what stands out to me is this idea of remembering rather than hallucinating.
Unlike classic psychedelics, which often produce vivid imagery or symbolic journeys. Five MEO is frequently described as stripping everything away. No story, no identity, just awareness itself. From a research perspective, these claims are still theoretical from a human perspective. They’re often life altering.
[00:08:28] April Pride. host: Why is it like that with five and not with ketamine which is what a lot of psychotherapists choose to use because it’s legal. Or with psilocybin. or MDMA.
[00:08:38] Dustin: I’ll chime in a couple thoughts about that. there’s, more research being done on five, right?
It feels like it’s one of the later molecules being studied, but It hits the same receptors as DMT as in terms of what’s in ayahuasca,
[00:08:50] Roger: psilocybin,
[00:08:51] Dustin: But then it also hits another receptor that those psychedelics don’t hit.
[00:08:56] Roger: it’s a double serotonin hit.
[00:08:58] April Pride. host: A double serotonin hit. This is where I wanna slow things down, especially for women listening. Think of serotonin receptors as different doors in the brain that each lead to very different nervous system experiences.
Most classic psychedelics, psilocybin, LSD. Are really focused on one main door, the five HT two A receptor. That’s the door that brings visuals, meaning making story insight. It’s very cognitive, very interpretive, and for a lot of people, very manageable. With psilocybin and LSD, they open this door.
Slightly right, or at higher doses, they take a battering ram to it. Five MEO knocks on the door, but blasts through the second door, the five HT one A receptor, and that door is much more about breaking, calming and quieting the system underneath the thoughts. From a nervous system perspective, that matters because instead of giving you more content to work with.
Five M-E-O-D-M-T often takes content away, less imagery, less narrative, less me tracking what’s happening. And for women, especially women who’ve lived lives that required control, vigilance, emotional labor, or staying regulated for other people that can feel both terrifying and deeply relieving
that strong five HT one a activation is part of why people describe five M-E-O-D-M-T as dissolving them, wiping the slate clean or dropping them into a kind of whiteout, not because nothing is happening, but because the usual strategies for staying oriented simply aren’t available. It’s less like watching a psychedelic movie and more like the nervous system finally being allowed to stop holding everything together.
The screen is static white noise, which is also why integration matters so much here when the system has been quieted that deeply. What happens afterward? How safety is rebuilt, how meaning is made slowly becomes the real work so we can become the feeling we’ve remembered while in an altered state induced by five.
[00:11:14] Dustin: Yeah. And of course, five MEO is endogenous to the human body.
it’s thought that there may be a release, upon death. Of five as well as DMT. And of course those are two very different molecules, though there’s some overlap in some ways. one of the other interesting things that I find about five MEO is it seems to induce gamma wave brain states in the person.
once you experience. The gamma wave. there’s a powerful remembrance and in some ways that’s what five has been revealing to me. it doesn’t really feel like a psychedelic in a way ‘cause it’s not highly visual.
It’s like this profound remembering of what you actually are. If you could feel what you felt like in utero. Without any sort of, contrast. sometimes there can be challenging aspects of the experience, but you feel everything.
Simultaneously it’s like becoming one with all that is, there’s that gamma wave frequency that I find so beautiful and for me, it’s become the most effortless thing because it feels like the foundation.
Of our moment of being. And so it’s like you get to energetically connect to that.
[00:12:34] April Pride. host: One thing that feels especially important to name here is what happens after the peak experience. When people talk about contacting source or dissolving into unity, it can sound abstract, but what many describe afterward is something very practical a quieter nervous system, less bracing, less contraction, a deeper sense of safety in the body. This is where integration matters more than intensity.
A short experience can still have long lasting effects, but only if it’s metabolized slowly over time.
A huge distinction because once you feel that, that’s source,
If you can tap into that.
Yes. And all the other feelings
they’re not true.
[00:13:18] Dustin: April, the fact that you’re getting all of this, having not done full release experiences is really great on a practical level, it has really helped me relax my nervous system through that connection to source.
Because what starts to happen is you start to really recognize in your bones, oh, you are source. We are source.
And you relax ever more deeply into that.
[00:13:41] April Pride. host: What Dustin alluded to just now is that I have not communed with five M-E-O-D-M-T my experiences with quote DMT with a quote v. My experiences with a quote, DMT vape go back to early 2018. When I was at a cannabis conference in Denver, another Seattle based group of women were there with A DMT vape.
I later learned that one of them sold these DMT vapes on the side, naturally about three, and gifted them to the guys in my life who I knew would appreciate. Them and they did what I can tell you about these pens. Fun fact, they’re manufactured in Russia and they contained N-N-D-M-T, not five M-E-O-D-M-T, and most of the vape pens are the D-M-T-N-M-D-M-T.
Is what most of the DMT carts
and when you hear DMT carts.
And when you hear quote DMT carts. Most of these on the market are N-N-D-M-T, not five M-E-O-D-M-T. And this is where confusion often enters the picture.
Five MEO does not produce crazy visuals yet when I hit my vape that is what I am seeing.
[00:15:44] Roger: Are you sure there’s no N-N-D-M-T in that vape pen?
[00:15:48] April Pride. host: There is.
[00:15:49] Roger: DMT is incredibly visual. I call them kissing cousins. but they’re very different. if they’re in the same vape pen, which does happen, then yeah, you’re gonna get crazy visuals.
Then you get to meet the machine ELs and, I
[00:16:04] April Pride. host: If I want a big hit, I hit the button until it blinks and then I stop.
All my plants come alive. But. I don’t drop in the way that everyone around me is.
[00:16:17] Roger: On the pen.
[00:16:19] April Pride. host: If like me, you’ve ever thought you were working with five M-E-O-D-M-T, but experienced intense visuals, fractals entities, whole worlds opening up, there’s a good chance N-N-D-M-T was also involved.
As Roger explained, these kissing cousins are in the same family. They both work through serotonin. They both open psychedelic doors in the brain, but, they don’t turn the same knobs to the same volume. I like to think of this as the same control board, but different settings, both N-N-D-M-T and five M-E-O-D-M-T activate the classic psychedelic serotonin door.
Five HT two A, and as I explained earlier, that’s the door responsible for visuals, symbolism, altered perception. The trip as most people understand it, but five M-E-O-D-M-T leans much harder on another serotonin pathway, five HT one A, and that shift in emphasis changes the entire tone of the experience.
With N-N-D-M-T, that strong five HT two A Drive tends to produce highly visual story-driven journeys. People talk about moving through spaces, meaning beings. You might have heard of elves watching things unfold. Then there’s often still a sense of you having an experience.
Even if that you is getting stretched or destabilized or hanging out with elves with five M-E-O-D-M-T, the heavier five ht. One, a influence can quiet the system much faster, fewer visuals, less story, less structure, more surrender, more white out void, unity, or I wasn’t there anymore. There was just this.
So N-M-D-M-T turns up the show me everything dial. Five M-E-O-D-M-T turns up the dissolve, the one who’s watching dial. And if you’re looking for a safe N-N-D-M-T cart, as well as other safe psychedelics, consider joining my Substack as an annual member to access Set Set psychedelic concierge. Iris.
they ask you very basic questions and you reply yes or no, and they can decide if your nervous system believes what you’re saying. she just, stopped the test and said, have you had a life that is required that you maintain a high level of control? Yes. And she was like, okay.
that was 15 years ago.
I think I’m still there.
Here’s where things get especially relevant for women. When I talk about having lived a life that required a high level of control, I know I’m not alone. Many women arrive at psychedelic work, highly competent, highly regulated, and deeply practiced at holding it all together. Some facilitation models attempt to soften that control first, sometimes through ketamine.
Before introducing DMT or five, AMI DMT, focus on delivery methods, dosing, precision, and careful screening. Clinically, these questions are now front and center. what dose is appropriate? Who should not be using this medicine? How do medications, cardiovascular risk and nervous system history factor in?
I’ll answer these questions at a high level Anyone with heart problems, high blood pressure, epilepsy, or serious brain or mental health conditions like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, is at a higher risk.
People taking, mood meds that affect serotonin like many antidepressants, SSRIs. MAO eyes or mixing it with things like Ayahuasca, MDMA or St. John’s Wort can get dangerously sick because there’s
Too much serotonin in the body leading to serotonin syndrome. It can also be mentally overwhelming, especially for people with heavy trauma. Or who already feel very unstable. So it should never be used without careful health checks and real support before and after. The research is early, but the questions are getting more serious.
[00:20:30] Dustin: April, this is making me think about, DMT as well as five M-U-D-M-T. when I started working with DMT,
I was having a lot of trouble dropping in. What we discovered, in our process is, when we pair ketamine, we offer something called the trifecta.
We work with a pharmacist, Ben Malcolm, the spirit pharmacist. we make sure that all these are okay to pair together.
We start people with ketamine and about 20 minutes in, we work with a DMT vape pen. you’re able to go in deeper, you do three to four consecutive polls on the vape pen.
Okay. And what I find and what we found with our guests, you are able to go in deeper with the pen every time now I’m able to have a breakthrough. With DMT when it’s paired with ketamine. and that’s a really beautiful and distinct experience from five MEO.
And so we offer that to people. Our main thing of course is the five M EEO experience, but if you’re interested in A DMT experience, the ketamine can help with that. now in terms of the five MEO experience. We work with an Argonne gas lamp. Argonne is an inert gas, and what’s really cool is, unlike with the pens, there’s no petrochemical.
So we’re basically giving you the vapor of the pure molecule.
All in one, inhale.
It’s very different than working with a five M-E-O-D-M-T, facilitator pen. It’s much more potent and you’re gonna have a full release basically, unless you’re on antidepressants
there are certain things that can dampen it. we’ve had over 80 visits and for 99% of people they, go fully into a full release.
[00:22:04] April Pride. host: there’s a kind of strength in letting go, especially for people who have spent years holding others, holding systems, holding themselves upright. So it doesn’t surprise me that women seem especially drawn to five M Eeo, DMT as Dustin explained. They’re not there for spectacle, not for visuals, but for surrender. If there’s one thing I hope this episode conveys, it’s this like other psychedelic medicine, five M-E-O-D-M-T is not a shortcut.
It’s not a cure, and it’s not something to romanticize, but it is something to approach with respect, discernment, and support, especially as it moves from the underground into early clinical study.
We will wrap this up with why Roger believes that 5-MEO-DMT is connecting with women so profoundly.
[00:22:53] Roger: One of our observations has been that women have a particular capacity and affinity. for five M-E-O-D-M-T, there’s a quality to the feminine that has always had to. Handle big transformation going into the depths, going into the earthly depths, that provides a kind of soul foundation, for the heights of five M-E-O-D-M-T.
[00:23:21] April Pride. host: Roger closed this episode beautifully and teed up what’s coming online for this show and SetSet in 2026. Moving into my fifth year of life at the intersection of personal change and a professional immersion in the world of psychedelics. I am the living embodiment of how psychedelic integration can support big transformations.
I don’t come at this work as a medical professional or even a trained facilitator. Rather, I’m a gifted communicator. connector and creative, in 2026, I will bring all my gifts, my dance with grief and my deep desire to support other women Through set sets, women in the wild gatherings. You can learn more by clicking the image at the top of set set’s website homepage@getsetset.com.
That’s G-E-T-S-E-T-S-E t.com. Also added to the website are guides and gifs. For those of you looking for psilocybin product information and sourcing. As always, I’m April Pride, founder of set, and your host.
Thank you for joining me for this episode, and please rate and review us wherever you listen. It helps others find this harm reduction information. And please share this episode with a friend.
I’d like to leave you today with an excerpt from a recording between Tilson who is set Set’s director of audio and his friend Summer. They played set set psychedelic integration cards and recorded their session you can expect to hear more from their recording as we move into 2026.
This is Summer’s response to set sets, card Grow love.
[00:25:06] Tilson: Who knows. You love them unconditionally.
[00:25:08] Summer: My man, he knows for sure. ‘cause I tell him every day, multiple times, and I show him love. Same way. He shows me love, but also my family Things just a given for them. They know, very family oriented, so they’re priority for me.
[00:25:30] Tilson: Have you ever let them down?
[00:25:34] Summer: I have.
Tilson: Will you show them love tomorrow?
Summer:Yes, until I die.
